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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

Badger I love the fact some take a snippet of the post and take it as the entire context.

For starters, my point of every club who has gambled with finances and found trouble, there are clubs who succeed too.

The second point you noted is that we’re debating finances we’ll no, it’s about jumping on one side or the other, and again in my post I go on to say it doesn’t matter as each club is different with different circumstances, we are Norwich with owners who have told us how it is, how it will be for the foreseeable future, so buy into it or don’t no point whining about it! Nothing can be done to change things.

Last when you finish lower each season than the previous one with smaller budgets, sellingthe quality players, I would say this could be seen as a downward spiral, don’t you?
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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

Latest news if you refresh the link in my last post is that an agreement has been reached in principle to avoid going into administration and they appear to have a stinking rich yank billionaire lurking in the shadows to inject some money.

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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

TIL 1010 wrote the following post at 11/09/2018 3:04 PM:
Latest news if you refresh the link in my last post is that an agreement has been reached in principle to avoid going into administration and they appear to have a stinking rich yank billionaire lurking in the shadows to inject some money.


But there isn’t anyone out there interested in teams like us or Bolton.....
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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

Always someone out there looking to buy football clubs ,

Delia does not have to sell as we do not have large debts now and self funded so unless we go down we should be ok if we stay in championship or above ,

We Cleared the shortfall and any overdrafts etc we had when we sold Maddison and Murphy this summer

They have set the club up perfect for self funding and could not have come at a better time

We reduced the wages to a level which we can afford and then got in the funds allowing us to clear up any debts,

I wonder what would have happened if those two were not here to be sold this summer how much trouble we would have been in ,

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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

Bolton panic over, so it sounds like it was Brinkmanship all along

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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

Sounds like they are still fretting over a possible points deduction but I doubt the EFL will have the balls for that.

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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

As I understand it, Bolton have avoided an immediate crisis by finding someone else to loan them the money to pay off the previous debt - I'd guess on worse terms.

This is not the Bolton crisis solved however, just another episode in a long story, resulting from over-expenditure when they were in the Premier League - they were actually wound up in 2007. As the Financial Times commented,


"Bolton’s tale is a familiar one. A once mighty club hits the heights of the Premier League, spends more than it can afford failing to stay there, and struggles as TV revenues slip away faster than it can cut its wage bill."

https://www.ft.com/content/9d3c5dde-dc67-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818

The situation would have been far worse but for the fact that the owner up to 2007 (Eddie Davies) was a real fan and prepared to wipe off over £175 million pounds that the club owed him! By a strange coincidence, he has just died.

I agree with norfolkngood, there will always be people willing to buy football clubs - especially if they are likely to get them at bargain basement prices due to previous financial mismanagement, but there is no guarantee of their success or even their good intention.

Perhaps the next owner will bring the dream - time will tell. However, it is over 10 years since they suffered as a result of spending too much - another example, forgotten by most it seems, of a club that "gambled and went for it."


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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

 Indy wrote:


Badger I love the fact some take a snippet of the post and take it as the entire context.

I did that because it was the snippets that I wish to contend. I agreed with much of what you said - perhaps I did not make that clear enough - sorry.

For starters, my point of every club who has gambled with finances and found trouble, there are clubs who succeed too.

There are clubs that have succeeded, but I would query the word gamble because as I pointed out, these have tended to be clubs with money no object owners or mega rich fans. However, the substantive point remains that there are far more clubs that have gambled and failed than have succeeded.

The second point you noted is that we’re debating finances we’ll no, it’s about jumping on one side or the other, and again in my post I go on to say it doesn’t matter as each club is different with different circumstances, we are Norwich with owners who have told us how it is, how it will be for the foreseeable future, so buy into it or don’t no point whining about it! Nothing can be done to change things.

I agree completely.

Last when you finish lower each season than the previous one with smaller budgets, sellingthe quality players, I would say this could be seen as a downward spiral, don’t you?

No, I would see it as a completely normal process of readjustment to relegation and the end of parachute payments - the majority of relegated clubs experience something similar - without TV money clubs have to sell their highest earners if they don't get promoted PDQ.

Our average position over 50 years is 22nd. Our current position is slightly below this, but that is the nature of averages! If our position were to continue to decline for the next 2 years and especially if we were to be relegated, I might agree with you re downwards spiral.


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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

I'm not sure Bolton are really an example of a team 'going for it and gambling though.'

They were a team who achieved well beyond their means and found themselves at a crossroads- a decade in the Premier League and ever inflating wage budgets that come with attempting to stay there let alone progress.

If anything they are pretty comparable to us- financially unable to compete without Premier League money. Their record signing is less than ours, they've pruned their wage bill to apparently about £12m and never spend more than £8m on any one player. They are doing all they can to live within their means yet still this situation arises.
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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

Not really King.

The media does not help at all by continually referring to transfer fees as a benchmark for spending. This is terribly inaccurate maths and a poor representation of the true liability of transfers on a club: this is quite overwhelmingly wages.

A ‘cheap’ Charlie Austin goes to Southampton for ‘only’ £4m.

His wages however are £100k per week for 4 years, meaning the true cost of his transfer is £24m.

This is fine provided you continue to make the revenues your are currently making. If for example such revenues drop 70% - such as via relegation - it is not the £4m transfer fee that is relevant anymore (you simply spent that when you had it*) - you are hugely hamstrung by the wages. The that you own a Ferrari and have paid it off (the transfer fee) is not the point, you cannot afford the petrol to run it (wages).

Bolton signed lots of ‘cheap’ Ferrari, but were left were left with the liabilities of the huge running costs without the means to do so. To return to the Charlie Austin example:

Transfer: £4m
Wages liability: £20m
Overall: £24m

Multiplied by however many Charlie Austins you buy. Transfer fees are a very crude and inaccurate measuring stick of investment, ambition or prudence.

Parma




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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

Parma

I'm aware wages are the biggest cost for clubs but even in that area Bolton haven't gone into crazy figures- they suffered from maybe not pruning wages quickly enough post relegation but since then have kept it largely between 60-80% of turnover.
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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

KC - they had published debts of about £200m - they may not have bought players with high fees but were living massively above their means.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolton_Wanderers_F.C.#Ownership_and_finances

https://planetradio.co.uk/hits-radio/sport/news/dean-holdsworth-speaks-pride-bolton-takeover/



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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

Presumably their new stadium would have been a burden as well?
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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

King,

Referring to Bolton’s period of a defined policy of signing high class ‘frees’, such as Djorkaeff, Hierro, Okocha et al, whilst paying them hugely high wages for the time (in order to attract them) is very much in line with my Charlie Austin example and is instructive.

Parma
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Re: First Birmingham now Bolton

Well, that told you King 😀
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