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Re: Serena Williams

Nuff said, I appreciate you are undoubtedly trying to be balanced and reasonable, but why didn't you say, "I don't respect the opinions of people who aren't 'reasonably informed'", which is a perfectly understandable and normal stance to take? Why did you bring the grouping and dismissal of peoples' opinions based on sex and race into the equation, without qualifying it based on the individual's knowledge?

What do you think about female tennis players receiving equal prize money, despite the fact they spend dramatically less time on court than male competitors, without even factoring in the level of revenue generated or any other variables? Would you consider that a sexist example of women being treated differently to men in a Grand Slam?

An extreme comparison perhaps, but whether you believe FA Super League teams should receive the same prize money as Premier League teams or not, they clearly don't, so in that respect, professional tennis is arguably one of the most advanced sports in terms of gender equality; certainly from the point-of-view of prize money. My misinformed self, and I'm sure many others, have absolutely no problem with female players getting substantially more prize money per hour on court, but it does seem a little ridiculous for the highest-paid female athlete of 2017 to try and excuse her dreadful behaviour as the fault of a sexist umpire and systematic sexism within the sport.

Perhaps one option to really remove any element of sexism, is to abolish all male/female segregated tennis competitions, and have all professional players compete in the same draw. I have absolutely no doubt that virtuous players like Serena, who of course are just admirably fighting for women and minority rights in their sport, would be all-too-happy for something like this to be implemented. This would certainly ensure that female and male players are treated in exactly the same fashion and have the same opportunities in the sport.

On a related note, did you know that Alfie Hewett received just a tiny fraction of the prize money Williams received, despite winning the wheelchair singles and doubles? I believe the prize pool for the entire "others" section of the US open was less than 2% of the prize pool of the ladies singles alone.
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Re: Serena Williams

@Ian

I guess the question is can a middle aged white man ever truly be 'reasonably informed' about dealing with sexism and racism. We're not on the receiving end of it (despite what some might claim).
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Re: Serena Williams

King Canary, you're telling me no white man could ever be on the receiving end of sexism or racism? That seems totally logical.
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Re: Serena Williams

<BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/forums/pinkun-forums/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>canarydan23 wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">The debate is not whether the umpire was correct. He acted entirely by the letter of the law.

The issue is whether he would have done had this been Djokovic v Del Potro or another all male contest. As has been said, and no one can dispute, coaching happens all the time. There was at least two exchanges between Djokovic and his entourage in the final the very next day. Was there any violation called? Nope.

A few years ago Andy Roddick asked an umpire if he deaf, called him an idiot and said he must have dropped out of school when he was 8. Code violation? Nope.

As for Serena, she either didn't realise her coach had said anything to her, so would have been incredulous at being punished for what in her eyes was essentially nothing, or she couldn't believe that she was being punished for something that happens IN EVERY GAME.

And as for that cartoon, why has Osaka been given white skin and blonde hair? Yes Swindon, nothing to see there.</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

No the key issue, which seems to be being overlooked by many due to the sexism smokescreen that Williams managed to introduce, is whether the umpire was correct and he undoubtedly was as her behaviour was appalling and deserved punishment.

Whether or not umpires are consistent in applying those rules or are more lenient to certain players or males in general is a different debate entirely. In terms of that debate I suspect its much more a case of inconsistency between different umpires rather than men being treated more favourably than women.




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Re: Serena Williams

Just a question for those citing examples of how men have been treated differently, the question is surely were they treated differently by the same umpire? I'm sure people could find many examples of women being treated more leniently as well if that were the narrative they wanted to push, almost certainly examples of Serena being treated more leniently as well...

As I said earlier, I'm sure that there is a (potentially subconcious) amount of sexism in tennis as there is in all sports, but this does not look like it is that.

Oh, and the accusations of whitewashing Osaka in that cartoon, she does actually have a blond ponytail and her skin is obviously a darker hue than that of the umpire please stop looking for offense when there isn't as that does demeen the actual occurances which do happen far too often...
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Re: Serena Williams

<BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/forums/pinkun-forums/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>king canary wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">@Ian

I guess the question is can a middle aged white man ever truly be 'reasonably informed' about dealing with sexism and racism. We're not on the receiving end of it (despite what some might claim).</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't buy this notion that seems to have recently become commonplace that only those who are subjected to or experience comments can judge whether they are racist/sexist/anti semetic etc with the implication being that if they believe that it is then it is. Its utter nonsense but seems to be the way the world is going.
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Re: Serena Williams

 king canary wrote:
@Ian I guess the question is can a middle aged white man ever truly be 'reasonably informed' about dealing with sexism and racism. We're not on the receiving end of it (despite what some might claim).

Well, we certainly can be.

But you don't need to be, to identify it. There is sexism in a variety of sports. I'm sure it must exist in tennis somewhere but for Serena to try and claim it exists in this scenario undermines genuine concerns internally within the sport.

I watch a lot of tennis. I play a lot of tennis. There are strict umpires, lenient umpires. There might even be sexist umpires. But this umpire was umpiring an all women tennis match. So if he was sexist, he was going to lose either way. But to indefinitely claim the umpire IS sexist, when he was simply following the rules and guidelines. Admittedly to the letter, but following them nonetheless. And if you were to look into it a bit further, he has a track record of being fairly strict in both mens and womens tennis.

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Re: Serena Williams

On the equal money thing: as a one-off, Usain Bolt Vs Mo Farah might be quite entertaining, or Man City Vs Exeter. But if sports constantly threw up mis-matched competitions, I think most people would stop watching. So 'seeding' to use a tennis term, is standard, no matter what the game. Women are generally physically smaller and less strong than men, so they each have their own competitions. In the same way that Alfie Hewett doesn't play Federer. That doesn't mean the effort expended or the 'value' of the event is any less. It could be argued that there's more interest in women's tennis than men's at the moment so they should be paid more.
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Re: Serena Williams

<BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/forums/pinkun-forums/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>canarydan23 wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">The debate is not whether the umpire was correct. He acted entirely by the letter of the law.

The issue is whether he would have done had this been Djokovic v Del Potro or another all male contest. As has been said, and no one can dispute, coaching happens all the time. There was at least two exchanges between Djokovic and his entourage in the final the very next day. Was there any violation called? Nope.

A few years ago Andy Roddick asked an umpire if he deaf, called him an idiot and said he must have dropped out of school when he was 8. Code violation? Nope.

As for Serena, she either didn't realise her coach had said anything to her, so would have been incredulous at being punished for what in her eyes was essentially nothing, or she couldn't believe that she was being punished for something that happens IN EVERY GAME.

And as for that cartoon, why has Osaka been given white skin and blonde hair? Yes Swindon, nothing to see there.</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not comparing like with like. In fact you are comparing what did happen to what could have happened in a different situation.

A fair comparison would be is this particular umpire sexist because he treats women tennis players differently to male tennis players. And the evidence is that this particular umpire is known to be a stickler for the rules ad the outcome could be expected regardless of the sex of the tennis player. Indeed, William's coach admitted to breaking the rules, the law isn't whether Williams saw the coach or not.
It's the same in football, some refs are stricter than others in applying the laws - consider the play-on rule, very open to referee interpretation - but when it goes against you, we may feel hard done by but in the end we have to suck it up. A footie player persistently calling the ref a liar or a thief is likely to get sent off.
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Re: Serena Williams

Ian: "you're telling me no white man could ever be on the receiving end of sexism or racism? " Obviously not, but... 1. It is pretty unlikely (as king canary says, despite what some might claim) 2. The key difference for me is that as a white man in the UK, I have benefited throughout my life from society's bias in favour of my gender and race. I haven't done anything conciously afaik to encourage this but at minimum I and my family haven't experienced overt or covert racism. (I haven't said sexism here because there's a discussion to be had about expectations of men, but I would argue that in most important aspects men have come out better off than women). I feel that because I'm in this privileged position, I should do my best to acknowledge it and listen to those who experience it, and not write it off without thinking it through because my experience can be very different from that of women and ethnic minorities.
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Re: Serena Williams

Should clarify- I'm not saying white people or men can't suffer discrimination, they can. But lets be honest here- we do not face anywhere near the level of systematic discrimination women or various minorities suffer. The western world is set up for white men and we benefit from that even if just on an unconscious level.

I actually agree that Serena is in the wrong here- she has singled out one umpire with a pretty strong accusation for which there isn't any proof and he's been hung out to dry somewhat.

However that cartoon is a cheap racist caricature and seeing people claiming it isn't just highlights how ignorant some people are about the issue and further highlights the systematic discrimination mentioned above.
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Re: Serena Williams

king canary said:

"I guess the question is can a middle aged white man ever truly be 'reasonably informed' about dealing with sexism and racism. We're not on the receiving end of it (despite what some might claim)"

This is a totally spurious argument. I don't have to drink poison to know that it will kill me. I can be reasonably informed about the effects of poison without having to directly experience it.

And you could try living in a non-Western culture for a while and you will almost certainly experience racism at some time or other.

And try to join some women-only organisation. Because of your gender your request will be rejected. Isn't that sexist?
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Re: Serena Williams

Kingo, you need to watch Ricky Gervaise Humanity stand up, people like yourself make a racist issue out of a satirical point of the event!

It’s not meant to be racist it’s meant to show a poor loser who needs to grow up and accept her actions which were wrong.
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Re: Serena Williams

I don't think the cartoon helps. I don't really think it has any racist intentions but that's not to say it couldn't be taken as such.
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Re: Serena Williams

If that’s the case hogesar, then no one can ever draw a cartoon again, as soon as you draw an ethnic diversity in a cartoon it will be deemed racist!

Sad time we live in, Serina is a proud woman, with a great athletic ability, her achievements have been superb, but the cartoon was poking fun at her poor sportsmanship nothing else! It’s appears that it’s again taken out of all context and made to be something it isn’t!
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